He thereupon told me that he was not thus present in the sacrament, but that it was in spiritual substance, and that I did not understand the matter; but that this argument had been established many centuries before my time; for when Christ held his supper he said, he took the bread and gave it to his disciples, and said: “Take, eat; this is my body.” I replied that the bread which Christ gave to his disciples, he gave them as an emblem of his body which was to be broken for them; even as he has represented himself by figures in many places of Scripture. In John (15:1) he says: “I am the true vine;” yet in reality he was no vine, but he compared himself to a vine. Thus the bread which Christ brake for his disciples, was spiritually a figure of his body; for he says in John 6; “Flesh and blood profit nothing; but the words that I speak are spirit and life.” He said that this was irrelevant; “for if Christ were not present,” said he, “how could we eat damnation thereby?” But I replied: “If it were the flesh and blood of Christ; we would not eat damnation thereby: for Christ says himself; ‘Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life.’ John 6:54. Hence these words must not be understood literally, but spiritually, namely, that if one who was still a drunkard, or covetous, or an idolater, or the like, should go to the Lord’s Supper with the church of Christ, whose head is Christ, such an one would be unfit to break bread with the members of Christ, not discerning Christ’s body.” 1 Cor. 11:29. Then he said that there were many among us, who were drunkards, adulterers, and the like, and that they were well known to him. I then asked him: “Who are they?” He said: “J. de R.” I then asked him where he lived. He replied: “I shall not tell you.” I said that I well knew if there were such in our church, and were known, they would, according to the Scriptures, be put away and excluded. 1 Cor. 5:11.
He then asked me, who had baptized me. And when he could not learn it from me, he adjured me, but I did not tell him. Then his secretary said: “I will wager you a pot of wine, that you will tell it before a fortnight has passed;” but I would not bet. He then asked me how often I had observed the Supper. I replied that I had sometimes observed it, when opportunity offered itself, with many dear brethren and sisters. He asked: “With whom? what are their names?” I gave him the name of one of them, whom he specially named in his question. He then inquired concerning others, whether I regarded them as my brethren, or whether they were only friends or novices; “for I have learned all this Flemish,” said he, “about novices [_aencomelingen_, i. e. newcomers], friends and brethren.” I said: “I thought you were from Brabant; do you understand so much Flemish?” “I hardly know what I am.” he said; “perhaps I am a foundling.” “Yes,” said I, “John’s Revelation (13:1) speaks of a beast, which rose up out of the sea; you may belong to that race.”
He then asked me whether I did not believe that Jesus Christ had assumed flesh and blood from Mary. I replied that I believed that the Word which was in the beginning with God, and by which the world was created, became flesh. Then he said that according to the flesh he was David’s son. I replied: “If he is David’s son, Christ himself says: How then doth David call him Lord?” He said that Christ only adduced this to the Pharisees by way of argument; but Matthew, said he, describes his generation from Abraham to Mary. I replied, that Matthew traces the generation of Christ only to Joseph, the husband of Mary of whom Christ was born; and Luke says that Jesus was supposed to be the son of Joseph. “But,” said he, “do you not believe that Mary is the mother of Christ?” I said: “Yes; Christ says: ‘Whosoever shall do the will of my Father, the same is my mother, sister and brother.’” Matt. 12:50.