He replied: “Yes, that is as regards the faith; and as touching the ordinances, these the holy teachers instituted through counsels and decrees, on account of certain causes that arose, even as it also happened during the times of the apostles: that all the elders came together, because contention arose in the church.” Acts 15:6. Then I said to him, that the Lord had commanded the children of Israel very strictly neither to take from nor add to the law; and how severely Saul was punished by the Lord, because he, following his own mind, had spared the king of the Amalekites, and the best oxen and sheep, contrary to the command of God. Deut. 4:2; 12:32; 1 Sam. 15. Thereupon he said: “The Lord had commanded him, to kill them all, and not to spare them, and for this reason he was punished; but we neither take from nor add to the faith.” I returned that they were nothing but human plants. And Christ says: “Every plant which my heavenly Father hath not planted shall be rooted up. Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch. Matt. 15:13. Then he said, that plants were not doctrines; but they are trees, said he, which are called men. I rejoined, that Christ, Matt. 15, did not speak of trees. He said: “Yes.” I said: “No;” so that he finally said: “I will let you have it.” He then asked me, where I had learned the Scriptures, or by whom I had been instructed. I replied that I had taken my foundation from the Scriptures, as Christ teaches us, saying: “Search the Scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. (John 5:39.) Hence, I searched, and asked the Lord for a right understanding and wisdom.” Then he said: “O we must be instructed.” I said: “We had also teachers.” He asked of whom our teachers had received understanding. I asked him in return where the prophets and apostles had received understanding. He answered, saying: “We are the ancient church, from the time of Christ to the apostles, who first instituted the holy church, and established it with many signs and miracles; and from the apostles to Timothy and Titus, and to all the holy teachers, and thence to all the holy popes and doctors even to the present day.” And we had many other words, concerning baptism, which it would take too long to relate; but we could not agree.
Finally, in parting, he showed me great friendliness, saying: “Dear Joos, you err, and do not understand the Scriptures.” I said: “My lord, even as you think that I err, so I think that you err.” He said: “Ask the Lord for understanding.” I replied, that I did so. Guilliame, the thief-catcher, was present throughout the whole conversation, and they were both very deeply moved on my account, as I well perceived; and he spoke much of the great pardon which had come from King Philip and the Pope together. In parting, I asked him, whether any one might be put to death on account of the faith. He answered, saying: “What else is the magistracy for?” I said: “For the protection of the good, and the punishment of the evil” (Rom. 13:3). He rejoined: “Peter killed Ananias and Sapphira” (Acts 5:5,9), and with this some persons came in, so that this remark received no reply.
Herewith I commend you to the Lord, and to the word of his grace. Greet W. B. and all his acquaintances in the Lord, in my name, with the peace of the Lord. Lauwerens, my fellow prisoner, also greets you with the peace of the Lord.
ANOTHER LETTER OF JOOST VERKINDERT, WRITTEN FROM PRISON, ON THE 1OTH OF AUGUST, TO HIS BROTHER W. AND I. HIS WIFE.