He further admonished me, that I should suffer myself to be instructed by the holy Church, which had stood for fifteen hundred years, while our sect had existed only fifty years, for Menno Symons had first introduced it. _Reytse._ “There were from the beginning of the world two classes of people, a people of God and a people of the devil. But the children of God have always been persecuted and dispersed, so that they have always been in a minority, and sometimes very few in number, so that they had to hide themselves in caves and dens, and as they are not of the world, the world does also not know them; but the ungodly have always been powerful, and have prevailed, and therefore you do not know the children of God, neither did your fathers know them, and you think that they have only now arisen.”
They said that I was seduced; their church had always existed from the beginning. I said: “When we shall appear before the judgment-seat of Christ, it will be found otherwise; then you will say: These are they whom we had in derision: O how they are now numbered among the children of God.” Wisdom 5:3,5. They also told me that I should not concern myself with the Scriptures, but simply go to church, and suffer myself to be instructed there, and not be obstinate, since the Scripture says that every word is established in the mouth of two or three witnesses, and hence I was bound to believe them. _Reytse._ “I believe the word of the Lord far more than your testimony; I do not want to depart from it, and hope by the help of God to live and die for it, because Christ says: ‘Whosoever shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.’” Matthew 10:32.
We had many other words, which it would take too long to relate. They approached me so with sophistry, that if the Lord had not been on my side, I would have had to succumb; so that I may well say: The Lord is my helper, of whom shall I be afraid? Ps. 56:11.
After I had been in prison nine weeks, I was again conducted to the Poorte, where were two priests and the bishop’s commissary; one was the priest of Nyehoof, the other was from the country. When I came to them, I uncovered my head, and greeted them. They first asked me on what I had determined, whether I would not amend. I said: “Yes, as much as is in my ability.” They then produced a letter, which contained the articles which I had previously confessed; this they read to me and asked whether I would adhere to it. I said: “Yes.” They said, then I was damned, and should plunge soul and body into eternal perdition. _Reytse._ “How dare you condemn me so dreadfully, whereas judgment belongs to the Lord?” _Priest._ “You have offended against the Scriptures, and apostatized from the holy Church, which has stood for fifteen hundred years, while your sect has not existed more than forty years; and you have suffered yourself to be rebaptized, whereas you had been baptized before.”
Then we had many words again concerning baptism; his conclusion was, that children which die without baptism are damned forever. _Reytse._ “And are you not afraid, so dreadfully to condemn the innocent children, when Christ has promised them the kingdom of heaven, so long as they remain in their innocence?” _Priest._ “No one can enter into the kingdom of heaven, he must first be born of water and of the Spirit; hence children must be baptized, if they are to be saved; the apostles also baptized many households, where certainly there were also children.” _Reytse._ “So far as the households are concerned, it is written that the house of Stephanas addicted themselves to the ministry of the saints, which is certainly not a work of children. 1 Cor. 16:15. And of the house of Cornelius it is written: That when Cornelius, the centurion of Cesarea, had called together his friends and kinsmen into his house, he said among other things to Peter: Thou hast well done that thou art come. Now therefore are we all here present before God, to hear all things that are commanded thee of God. And while Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word. And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost. For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter, can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we? Acts 10:33,44–47. From this you can easily perceive, if you are not entirely struck with blindness, that this is not spoken of children. Again, Paul preached the word of God to the jailer and to all that were in his house, and after they were baptized he rejoiced with all those that were in his house, that he had come to believe in God (Acts 16:34), which is above the understanding of children, for to understand the preaching of the word of God, to believe in it, and to rejoice on account of the faith, this is far from children.” Then they said that there were many other writings that testified with regard to it; but I did not want to receive any writings except the New Testament, which Christ sealed with his precious blood. Then they asked me, whether the children of the heathen and the Turks should also be saved. I said: “Yes, as well as your baptized children.” Then they were greatly astonished, and spoke scornfully to me and damned me. One of the priests sat by me, and asked me how I dared speak such words; he knew that I was damned, as well as he knew that I was sitting by him. I laughingly said: “How could you know it better?” And after many words which we had about infant baptism, I finally said that I believed nothing but what I had confessed. They again asked me, whether I did not believe that our Lord is present in the form of bread. I said: “This I do not believe; for he will not come under your teeth.” I asked the priest whether he believed it. Then he held out his finger and said he believed more certainly that God was in the bread, than he believed that that was his finger. And after other words which we had together, they got some clean paper and asked all the articles of me anew: whether I acknowledged the church of the Mennists as a true church, and how long it was since I had been baptized. I said: About four years. And so on, they asked all the articles of me again. I answered them in the same manner as before, and they noted down everything exactly, to deliver it to the lords. Finally, when all the remarks had been concluded, they produced a letter, which was the sentence which the bishop had concluded over me, in which they damned me as an unbelieving, disobedient and obstinate heretic, and delivered me into the hands of the secular judges. Since he had sufficiently admonished me, and I would not let myself be instructed, he, like Pilate, took water and washed his hands, and also thought that he was clear of my blood; hence I had to expect the sentence, and many other words. Then they told me to go.