_Ans._ “Let us begin then.” _Joos._ “Very well, before the hall of justice, near a big fire, and the one that is overcome shall be cast into it.” _Ans._ “This will not be granted you.” The under-bailiff then said: “You seek to make disturbance.” _Joos._ “You have made it by apprehending me; if you had let me work, Kortrijck would not be in the condition it is in now; it was not in such a state for seven years.” _Polet._ “You will not be taken there, and this for the reason that you may not spread your poison.” _Joos._ “You ought to come before the hall of justice, and the more people present, the better, for if I have the lies, and you the truth--are you ashamed of the truth before the people? Take me there, and show me that I am in the wrong, and you will stop the mouths of the people, and when you have overcome me, say: ‘This is the man who has taught contrary to the Christian faith; we now prove to him with the Scriptures, that he is in the wrong,’ and then throw me into the fire, and the people will be edified. If you will not do this, you are not willing that the people should know the truth.” _Ronse._ “You will not be brought thither to speak; when you are brought there, speaking on your part will be prevented.” _Joos._ “Why? the people have their five senses, and he that hath five senses, will hear whether I speak good or evil.” _Ronse._ “You will be prevented from speaking there.” _Joos._ “Do it then; put me boldly into a bag, and smother me by night, so that no one will see it; if he sees it, who searches the hearts and reins, enough people see it; and he will see it, and avenge himself; I leave it to him, for I am ready any way, to put off this flesh, whether in the fire or in the water, before the hall of justice or here in this fire (the fire on the hearth); it is not big enough, make it bigger.”
They then again proposed to me to dispute, and said that they were sent from God, and appointed his vice-regents. I said: “This is not so; for you have bought your benefices, or they have been given you, or you have gained them by serving; but those whom God has sent, from the beginning of the world, have been sent differently.” They said that they would prove it to me by the Scriptures, that they were sent. I said: “Prove it?” _Ans._ “This is it, that to Peter the key was given, and he was Pope, and it was given to him and his successors.” _Joos._ “Show me, that anything is said there about _successors_?” _Ans._ “This will be shown you.” _Joos._ “Show me then?” Then Ronse read from a Testament, Matt. 16, from the place where Christ asks: “Whom do men say that I, the Son of man, am?” to where he says: “I will give unto thee the keys;” but there was nothing said about successors. He then said: “You have heard it, have you not, Joos? it is so long: I would read further, but it is too long a task?” _Joos._ “I desire that you read on.” _Ronse._ “How far?” _Joos._ “To where it speaks about successors.” _Ronse._ “You have heard that he says: ‘Upon this rock I will build my church.’ Hence it is founded upon St. Peter, and he was Pope.” _Joos._ “Christ is the foundation, as Paul says (1 Cor. 3:11): ‘Other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.’ But Peter is not the foundation, nor did Christ found the church upon Peter, but upon the confession of his faith where he confesses: ‘I confess that thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God;’ therefore, Christ is the foundation. But,” said I, “let us speak about the key; you skip from the key to the church; you say that I run from one thing to another, stick to your text yourselves, and show me, as you have asserted, that Christ says: ‘I give unto thee the key, and unto thy successors.’” They replied: “We shall show it to you. But listen, it is this,” said Polet, and produced a sophism. I said: “You cannot satisfy me with arguments; show it to me in the book?” Then Ronse said: “We know it by heart, and so do you; hear us repeat it from memory?” I said: “Read it?” They replied: “Is it not the same whether we read or speak it? Joos, hear what I shall tell you?” I said: “Telling will not satisfy me.”