Thereupon I replied: “Paul was then a prisoner, and that magistrate was an unbeliever; but show me once where they had magistrates in their church.” “Yes.” said the priest, “if unbelievers did this, how much more believers.” I asked where the apostles had baptized bells. He said: “We do not baptize bells.” “What do you teach them then?” said I. He said that they blessed or exorcised them, if I have remembered his words correctly; “For,” said he, “Satan is much in such things;” and he related how he had reigned in the New Church, and therefore this was done, as he said; and there was a great deal said.
I said to him that I had never read that the apostles had magistrates in the church, who protected their faith with the sword; but that I had read that Paul says: “We wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world.” Then the priest started up, and asked where this was written. “In Eph. 6:12,” said I. Then he took up his Testament, and looked for it, and having read it he said: “This Paul says of the devil; he is the prince of this world.” I said: “It is the magistracy of this world, who rule the world, for it speaks of principalities and lords of this world.” And there fell many words, the Bailiff listening with attention. The priest said that our faith had not existed long, but that their faith had endured fifteen hundred years, and though whole countries were apostatizing from it, said he, whole countries were being converted in India, and that many great signs and miracles occurred there, even as occurred in the time of Christ, so that the Christians were increasing. Then I said: “Does that occur there, and not here? the church is certainly also here in these lands, and there are pastors in Delft, and in other cities hereabout, as well as there.” He said, it was certainly true. “Yes,” said I, “Pharaoh’s magicians also imitated what Moses did.” “Yes,” said the priest, “that was so, but they did not do such things as occurred there.” Then I said: “Well then, I will adduce to you still more: we read that there was a sorceress, who caused Samuel to come forth from the grave, and Samuel talked with her or with Saul, 1 Sam. 28. “That is true,” said the Bailiff; “I have read that.” Then said I, “Christ himself also says that they shall say: Lord, have we not in thy name cast out devils? But he shall answer them: Depart from me; I know you not.” Matthew 7:22,23. Then the Bailiff said: “Jan Hendrickss does not believe it; do you, Jan Hendrickss?” “No; Sir Bailiff,” said I, there is so much villiany perpetrated.” “Yes,” said the priest, “there has much indeed been done that was not good;” and he related that there had been popes who had not done what was good, but what was wrong. This the priest himself acknowledged; but there was now,” said he, “an old, able man Pope, of whom much good was said, and he confessed that there were bad abuses among them. “Paul says,” said I, “that the old leaven ought to be purged out, and that if any man that is called a brother be a drunkard, or a railer, or a fornicator, with such a one we ought to have nothing to do;” but of this, as it seemed, he had little understanding. “Indeed,” said the Bailiff, “if there were a man who would have to do with another man’s wife, I should not want to have anything to do with him.”
The priest then I think asked me why I had left them? I said that I had indeed heard the priests preach a great deal, very severely censuring popery, but that they did not practice what they preach; that they drank to such an excess as to fight, strike and rave as though they had been madmen, and for this reason I left. This I confessed to him because the Bailiff was present; when there were no lords present, I did not wish to bring up their things. I said: “They always want to instruct us in prison; they ought to set us at liberty, and then instruct us;” but of this nothing was said. And having thus many words together, I asked the Bailiff, saying: “Sir Bailiff, I must ask you something: if I should renounce my faith: however I do not say that I shall do that.” “Well,” said the Bailiff, “I do not say it either, that you do.” “But if I did, would you assure me of my life, and release me:” “This I will not say, but I still say as my lords said, that we will do our best in that respect.” “Yes, Sir Bailiff,” said I, “what would that signify; it has happened that persons have renounced their faith, and were put to death notwithstanding, as has been seen in Delft,” “Yes,” said the Bailiff, “some were also released.” This I had to ask him once, to hear what he would say; for we had talked about it together. Not that we intended to renounce our faith, but to hear what they would say. For it has never been my mind, nor have I ever had any inclination for it; but it afforded me a good reason, when they tormented us to renounce, to give them this for an answer. Why should we renounce our faith? our life is not assured us. We had many words together, but these are the principal things that were said which I have remembered, for my memory is not strong. If I were to write everything, I should require much paper, for it lasted full four hours. In consequence of its lasting so long, my fellow brethren were very sorrowful, for they thought and believed that I had been confined elsewhere away from them.