_Com._ “Whence then originate so many sects and heresies? whence springs so much uproar and mutiny?”
_Jac._ “As far as the sects and heresies that are in the world are concerned; as those of Munster or Amsterdam, or elsewhere, we have in no manner fellowship or part with their works, nor with their doctrines, but we regard them as doctrines of devils. All these things cannot prevent the truth from being truth, and the Christians from being true Christians, any more than could in the days of the apostles all the sects and heresies that were round about them, and had some semblance of the word of God.”
* * * * *
After these and many other words which we had together, he began to get milder in his manner, and said to me: “You must not study so high, but suffer yourself to be instructed by those who are more learned and wise than you, and you must believe in the word of God.”
_Jac._ “O my lord, how should I not believe in the word of God? For this same word I am imprisoned here, and stand now before you, to give answer concerning it.”
_Com._ “You are not imprisoned for the word of God, but for your evil deeds.”
_Jac._ “My lord, have you heard of any one complaining that I wronged or injured him in any way?”
_Com._ “No; I have not heard that any complaint has been made against you.”
_Jac._ “The Lord be praised, that it is not for my iniquity, but for the testimony of the true faith.”
_Com._ “Not so; but for your crimes, since you have offended against his Imperial Majesty, and transgressed the command of the King our lord.”
_Jac._ “If I have transgressed the King’s command, it is a small matter, since I have fulfilled the command of that King who is the true God and eternal King.”
_Com._ “You have also transgressed the command of God, and of our mother the holy church.”
_Jac._ “My lord, you cannot prove to me by the holy Scriptures, nor can any one else, that herein I have transgressed God’s command.”
_Com._ “It shall be proven to you. Well then, let us begin to finish the articles in which I have been charged to examine you.”
We had many more words, which it would take me too long to relate here, besides that I do not remember them well. The commissary was somewhat discouraged, and listened attentively to whatever I wished to say.
Thereupon he asked me when I came to Emden, and where I had taken up residence, and whether I had been directed to these people, I answered: “Yes.” _Com._ “Who directed you?” _Jac._ “A good friend.” _Com._ “In whose house were you?” _Jac._ “I do not know the house in which I was.” _Com._ “Who was it that brought you to Leenaert?” _Jac._ “They were men and youths, women and maidens.” _Com._ “What were their names?” _Jac._ “As to their surnames, I should have had much to do, to know them all by their names and surnames, since I was not there long enough to learn them all.” _Com._ “When you came into the house, where was Leenaert? what did he preach about?” _Jac._ “He preached the pure word of God.” _Com._ “Of what, and of which articles did he preach?” _Jac._ “He taught amendment of life, and that we must put off the old man, and put on the new; he forcibly showed by the Scriptures that those who walk after the flesh, and after their lusts, have no part in the kingdom of God.” _Com._ “Did he not speak of some other things?” _Jac._ “My lord, I should have much to do, to retain all, even as it would cost you, I think, much trouble and labor to retain a sermon that was preached eighteen months or two years ago.” _Com._ “Did you there receive your second baptism?” _Jac._ “I have received but one baptism, and that according to the ordinance of Christ.” _Com._ “Did you not also receive a baptism in your infancy?” _Jac._ “I do not know what was done to me in my infancy, I have no remembrance of it.” _Com._ “Did not your father or your mother tell you that you were baptized, and did you not have sponsors?” _Jac._ “Yes, I think they told me, and I have also called some persons godfather and godmother, but this was not in accordance with the Scriptures.” _Com._ “Well, was that not enough? have you besides this received something more from Leenaert, namely, water or baptism according to your notion?” _Jac._ “I received from him baptism according to the word of God.” _Com._ “Do you not consider the baptism good which you received in your infancy?” _Jac._ “Had I considered it good, and a baptism, I should not have received another; for it is written that there is one Lord, one faith, and one baptism, and not _many_ baptisms.” Eph. 4:5. _Com._ “Did you receive the baptism which Leenaert administered to you in the house in which you were assembled?” _Jac._ “Yes.” _Com._ “Was it after or before preaching?” _Jac._ “After preaching.” _Com._ “Did he not speak of baptism?” _Jac._ “Yes and he showed by the holy Scriptures, what it was, and what baptism signified; he humbly admonished the applicants for baptism, to observe well and take good heed what they accepted, and showed the cross and persecution which result to them that have come so far; and many other demonstrations from the holy Scriptures.” _Com._ “Were you not afraid of the decree of the Emperor?” _Jac._ “No; _neither am I now_.” _Com._ “Jacques, it will go hard with you, unless you submit to mercy for your misdeed.” _Jac._ “My lord, I expect mercy from the Lord; but I am not aware that I have offended against the Emperor or the King, for which I should look for mercy. And if the decree is contrary to the word of God, it does not appear to me that in fulfilling the command of God, I offend against any one whoever he be!” _Com._ “Jacques, Jacques, think what the decree says.” _Jac._ “My lord, I well know that it has more authority in this world than the word of God, to put to death those who believe on his name and depart from unrighteousness, as is written that it should be so. (Is. 59:15; Matt. 10:17). But what will it signify when you shall have done with me according to the decree, and shall have put me to death? You will have nothing but a vile and mortal body, which is subject to corruption; but as regards the soul, you cannot touch it, and when you appear before God’s judgment, you shall know what you have done.” Matt. 10:28. _Com._ “Jacques, I do not seek your death, God knows; I should be sorry to see you suffer in the least.” _Jac._ “My lord, this will be seen in the end, how comes it then that you thus shed the innocent blood here, when you do not understand the faith as you have told me? Why do you not ordain then that those who cannot recognize your faith to be true and good, be banished from the country, with retention of their life and property, as is done throughout Germany, and also in Oostland,[276] which countries do not judge the word of God, to shed blood?”