These are the questions which he put to me; but he used far more words, and when I did not readily answer him, he said that I had a dumb devil in me, that the devil transformed himself into an angel of light in us, and that we were all heretics. He then read to me the articles I had confessed, and said it should come before the lords, and that if I desired it, he would write it differently. I replied: “You need not change anything.”
_Questions and answers between the inquisitor and Claesken._
_Inquisitor._ “Why did you have yourself baptized?” _Claesken._ “The Scriptures speak of a new life. John first calls to repentance, Christ himself also, and afterwards the apostles; they taught the people to repent and reform, and then to be baptized. Thus did I repent and reform, and was baptized.” Against this he did not say much. _Inq._ “Why did you not have your children baptized?” Cl. “I cannot find in the Scriptures that this ought to be.” _Inq._ “David says: ‘I was shapen in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me.’ Ps. 51:5. Since children are born with original sin, they must be baptized, if they are to be saved.” Cl. “If a man can be saved by an external sign, then Christ has died in vain.” _Inq._ “It is written, John 3:5, that we must be born again, of water and of the Spirit; hence, children must be baptized.” Cl. “Christ does not say this to children, but to the adult; therefore did I become regenerated. We know that the children are in the hands of the Lord. The Lord said: ‘Suffer little children to come unto me; for of such is the kingdom of heaven.’” Matthew 19:14. _Inq._ “The household of Stephanas was baptized, which probably also included children.” 1 Cor. 1:16. _Cl._ “We do not depend on probabilities; we have the certain assurance.” He did not say much against this either. _Inq._ “What do you think of the holy church?” _Cl._ “I think much of it.” Inq. “Why then do you not go to church?” _Cl._ “I think nothing of your church-going.” _Inq._ “Do you believe that God is Almighty?” _Cl._ “Yes, I believe this.” _Inq._ “Do you then also believe that Christ consecrates himself, and is present in the bread? Paul says: ‘The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ? And the cup which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ?’” 1 Cor. 10:16. _Cl._ “I well know what Paul says, and believe it, too.” _Inq._ “Christ said: ‘Take, eat; this is my body;’ and Paul likewise.” Matt. 26:26; 1 Cor. 11:24. _Cl._ “I well know what Christ and Paul say, and thus I believe.” _Inq._ “Do you believe that Christ consecrates himself, and is present in the bread?” _Cl._ “Christ sitteth at the right hand of his Father; he does not come under men’s teeth.” _Inq._ “If you continue in this belief, you will have to go into the abyss of hell forever. It is what all heretics say. Jelis of Aix-la-Chapelle has deceived you; he himself has renounced his belief, because he saw that he had erred.” _Cl._ “I do not depend on Jelis, or any other man, but only on Christ; he is our foundation, upon whom we have built ourselves, even as Christ teaches us in his Gospel: Whosoever heareth my words, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, who built his house upon a rock; and though storms come, and beat against the house, yet it will not fall. Matt. 7:24. These now are the storms that beat against our house; but Christ is our stronghold, and he will preserve us.” _Inq._ “You do not understand it; there are many other writings, of which you know nothing.” _Cl._ “We need no other writings than the holy Gospel, which Christ himself, with his blessed mouth, has spoken to us, and sealed with his blood; if we can observe that, we shall be saved.” _Inq._ “You should suffer yourself to be instructed; the holy fathers instituted churching[278] fifteen hundred years ago.” _Cl._ “The holy fathers did not have this holiness; these are human commandments and institutions. Neither did the apostles practice this holiness; I never read it.” _Inq._ “Are you wiser than the holy church?” _Cl._ “I do not wish to do anything against the holy church; I have yielded myself to the obedience of the holy church.” _Inq._ “You should think: Do I know better than the holy fathers fifteen hundred years ago? You should think that you are simple.” _Cl._ “Though I am simple before men, I am not simple in the knowledge of the Lord. Do you not know that the Lord thanked his Father, that he had hid these things from the wise and prudent, and had revealed them to the simple and unto babes?” Matt. 11:25.