He laughingly said to me: “Do we say that?” _Jac._ “Do you not? do you not say we are evil, vile and useless trees, that must be cast into the fire? And yet you have confessed to me, that our fruits are good, but that it is our faith.” _Inq._ “It is true, you do good works before men; but the inward is good for nothing, for your faith is not good.” _Jac._ “Our works spring from our faith; the vessel cannot give forth anything but what is in it; hence the Lord calls those a generation of vipers, who confessed that the fruit was good, and the tree corrupt, saying: ‘Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt.’ Luke 6:45; Matt. 12:34. _Inq._ “Therefore you would say that our bishops and pastors can have no good faith, unless their works are good.” _Jac._ “My lord, I can answer with Paul: ‘They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate’ (Tit. 1:16); and such pastors I will not follow.” _Inq._ “No, no, Jacques, they are not so abominable as you think, though they are also sinners, even as we all are.” _Jac._ “My lord, you know better than you say; for I should be ashamed to discover the shameful acts of this people, who boast of being the light and salt of the earth, and the leaders of the blind and ignorant.” _Inq._ “What shameful acts? tell me freely.” _Jac._ “My lord, since you desire me to tell you, you know very well yourself, what unnatural whoredom, too shameful to mention, such as was committed by Sodom and Gomorrah, those of Rome commit, namely, the Pope, who boasts of being a holy man, and God upon earth, and the cardinals and bishops that are there; to say nothing of the pride, pomp and wickedness of which these holy people are guilty.” _Inq._ “It is true, that there are some who commit great abomination before God, so that it is abominable of some; but, Jacques, we must not condemn the good on account of the bad; they are not all bad; there are also some that are righteous.” _Jac._ “I believe that the righteous are thinly sown; for from my youth I have lived mostly among priests, canons and monks, and it were a shame to relate the abounding wickedness which I have seen there.” _Inq._ “My son, not all, not all.” _Jac._ “My lord, so far as I have ever seen and known, I do not know that I have seen a single one walk after the rule prescribed to a bishop or pastor, even as you know better yourself what occurred two or three weeks ago in this city of N. in the convent of the Jacobines.”
The monks or Jacobines had driven their prior out of the convent, because he had reproved them for their licentiousness and wickedness.
_Inq._ “Jacques, though there have been wicked popes, cardinals, bishops, priests, and monks, there have, on the other hand, also been good ones; do you not know that the good grain is not without chaff? No, no, there are good grains and good pastors, though you do not know them.” _Jac._ “Show me then but a single upright pastor, such as I demanded of you, according to the Scriptures, and I will follow him.” _Inq._ “Though I should name them to you, you do not know them any way, and will not believe me; but even if it were true, namely, that they are wicked, yet they have the true faith.” _Jac._ “I hold to the testimony of Paul, that light has no communion with darkness.” 2 Cor. 6:14. _Inq._ “Do you mean to say then, that a man who commits evil works cannot have the true faith?” _Jac._ “If a man that has received knowledge, yield himself to the commission of wickedness, his faith will not last long, or will soon be darkened.” _Inq._ “Who has told you this?” _Jac._ “Paul writes to the Romans, that some held the truth in unrighteousness, since that which might be known of God, God had showed them; and though they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; wherefore God gave them up to the lusts of their hearts, filled with darkness.” Romans 1:18. _Inq._ “Paul speaks there of the philosophers, who turned to the heavens, stars, planets, etc., for guidance.” _Jac._ “That is all the same to me, of whom he speaks, philosophers or others; but Paul shows that through their works and ingratitude their hearts were filled with darkness. Moreover, he also says: ‘Because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved,... for this cause God shall send them strong delusion;’ which also came to pass.” 2 Thess. 2:10,11. _Inq._ “Did not Judas Iscariot commit a wicked work in delivering up the Son of God?” _Jac._ “The Scripture says that it would have been better, if he had not been born.” Matt. 26:24. _Inq._ “Yet he had a true faith; what do you say to this?” _Jac._ “Had he a true faith before or afterwards?” _Inq._ “Before and also afterwards, though he was a thief.” _Jac._ “Though his heart was wicked, yet his walk was good, so that they did not dare think that it was he who should commit the deed, but all asked: ‘Is it I? is it I?’” Mark 14:19. _Inq._ “Look also at Demas, did he not have the true faith? Yet his heart was bound up in things of this world; nevertheless, Paul regarded him as a brother.” Col. 4:14. _Jac._ “It is true that Paul regarded him for a time as a brother and companion in the work of the Lord; but after he said that Demas had forsaken him, having loved this present world, and no longer calls him a brother or companion.” 2 Tim. 4:10. _Inq._ “That you do not know.” _Jac._ “The Scriptures say nothing about it.” _Inq._ “That proves nothing either way; you must believe that a sinful man can have the faith and the Gospel; do you think that we must therefore not hear him, and believe his word?” _Jac._ “My lord, wherein do you reprove Paul of sin, after he had received the knowledge of the truth?” _Inq._ “Is it not written: ‘He that saith that he hath no sin, maketh God a liar?’” 1 John 1:10. _Jac._ “True, but it is also written in the same epistle: ‘Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin because he is born of God.’ 1 John 3:9. And Paul said: ‘How shall we, that are dead to sin, live unto sin’” Rom. 6:2. _Inq._ “Paul there simply asks a question; but do you therefore think that he did not sin?” _Jac._ “You know that Paul said that Christ was living in him; did Christ then commit sin? Gal. 2:20. He also exhorts the Corinthians, to follow him, even as he had followed Christ, and calls God and men to witnesses, how holily and justly, and unblamably he had walked among them, 1 Cor. 11:1; 1 Thess. 2:10. Of what sin then, my lord, will you accuse Paul?” _Inq._ “Nevertheless, he was a sinner; this you certainly cannot deny.” _Jac._ “I do not want to deny it; for he says himself, that he was the chief of sinners, blasphemers and persecutors while in unbelief, but not after he had received the knowledge [of the truth]. 1 Timothy 1:15. Well then; but what I ask you for, are pastors that are blameless in life, doctrine and conversation; for I well know that all men are born in sin; but he that abideth in sin, hath not known God.” Ps. 51:5; 1 John 3:6. _Inq._ “You must not thus understand the passage; for a sinful man does have knowledge of God.” _Jac._ “Yes, with the mouth, or it would not be true what the apostle Peter has said, that he that has not the fear of God, and brotherly and living love, is blind, and gropes with the hand for the way. Tit. 1:16; 2 Pet. 1:9. _Inq._ “No, he says that he is like the blind.” _Jac._ “My lord, with your permission, he says that such a blind man gropes for the way, which is a sign that he has not found it; now, shall I follow such people?” _Inq._ “Your Menno, is he so just, holy and blameless?” _Jac._ “I have not had sufficient intercourse with him, to find anything blamable in him.” _Inq._ “With whom then have you had your intercourse? can nothing be said of your teacher? is he unblamable?” _Jac._ “My lord, can you produce anything against him, or accuse him of anything?” _Inq._ “I do not know the rascal.” _Jac._ “Then do not defame him; for you would find it a difficult task to prove that he is what you call him.” _Inq._ “This would not be difficult for me to do; for he has seduced enough people to be called this.” _Jac._ “My lord, take care that you are not yourself one who seduces the people.” _Inq._ “Is he not a native of a certain village in Zealand?” He named the village, but I have forgotten it. _Jac._ “I do not know where he was born.” _Inq._ “What kind of a looking man was he? what sort of beard and clothes did he have?” _Jac._ “My lord, you are certainly inquiring very diligently for him; I think you would like to betray him; do you know no other way, my lord?” _Inq._ “I wish him no harm.” _Jac._ “I hear that you say so; nevertheless, you would like to have him here in my place, would you not, my lord?” _Inq._ “Yes, if he would become converted.” _Jac._ “And if he would not be converted to your views, would you not place him to the stake?” _Inq._ “I should leave this to the Judge.” _Jac._ “Well, would you not then wish him harm? would you want to have this done to you?”