Gotthard Of Nonenberg And Peter Kramer, A. D. 1558.

Perceiving that he could not answer me, and that two or three persons were listening at the door, besides the jailer, who is always with the prisoners, he commenced to give me a long talk, saying that I must not inquire so deeply into the Scriptures, but suffer myself to be instructed by those more learned than I, and that I must believe that a sinful man, of wicked life could have the faith as well as another, and that I must hear his words, but not do after his works. _Jac._ “Must I believe this by the Scriptures, or without the Scriptures?” _Inq._ “I have proven it to you by the Scriptures.” _Jac._ “By what Scriptures?” _Inq._ “By the cases of Judas and Demas, who had faith, and yet were wicked of life.” _Jac._ “My lord, it appears to me that our words are mere child’s play; have I not replied to this, and proven to you, that it becomes us not to take those who have apostatized from the faith for leaders and pastors?” _Inq._ “Where do you expect to find blameless pastors such as you demand? do you not see that the world is full of knavery?” _Jac._ “If you do not know any, I know some, and such I will follow.” _Inq._ “Where are they?” _Jac._ “They are unknown to you; do you not know that when the prophet thought that all the righteous in Israel had been slain by Ahab and Jezebel, the Lord said that there were seven thousand left yet, who had not bowed their knees unto the idol Baal.” 1 Kings 19:10. _Inq._ “It was because of the persecution raging at that time, that they were so scattered.” _Jac._ “Thus it is yet at the present day on account of persecution, that they are scattered, and unknown to the world. _Inq._ “But must you for a Menno, or any other single individual, who seem to lead a good life, must you therefore follow him, and forsake all the other bishops and pastors, who do not walk just as uprightly?” _Jac._ “My lord, do you think that if Ahab, the King of Israel had forsaken the counsel of the four hundred prophets, and followed the single advice of poor Micaiah, he would have done amiss?” _Inq._ “Certainly not; for Micaiah was a prophet of God.” _Jac._ “Did not the others say that they were too? and did they not smite poor Micaiah on the cheek, because he prophesied against them, and say to him: ‘Do you think that the Spirit of God has departed from us?’” _Inq._ “They boasted of the Holy Spirit, but falsely; for they did not have him?” _Jac._ “Ahab did not know that; for because Micaiah had alone prophesied against the four hundred prophets, the poor man of God was cast into prison on scanty bread and water, till Ahab should return from the battle at Ramoth-gilead; but he found that the counsel of the four hundred prophets cost him his life, as Micaiah had foretold him.” _Inq._ “The events recorded in these passages occurred in former times.” _Jac._ “Paul says that all was written for our learning; and the same things still happen at the present day.” Rom, 15:4. _Inq._ “Well then, then you will not hear or follow any pastors, except they practice what they teach?” _Jac._ “No; for it is written: ‘The light of the body is the eye; if thine eye be evil, thy whole body shall be full of darkness.’” Matt. 6:22. _Inq._ “Then you will not follow the advice of Jesus Christ, namely, to do after their words, and not after their works.” _Jac._ “To whom does he say this?” _Inq._ “To his disciples.” _Jac._ “Of whom does he say it?” _Inq._ “Jesus Christ says: ‘The scribes and the Pharisees sit on Moses’ seat: all therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works.’” Matt. 23:1,2. _Jac._ “What kind of a seat was it, wooden or stone?” _Inq._ “It was the seat that was there.” _Jac._ “How could so many people sit in one seat? was it so large? or was it not the law Christ alluded to?” _Inq._ “It is the same thing, the law which they proclaimed.” _Jac._ “The law was a command of God, and not of men, and when Christ said this, he did not choose them to feed or lead his flock.” _Inq._ “When he said: Do after their words, and not after their works, did he not appoint them pastors?” _Jac._ “Have you not read what the Lord says: ‘Except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.’ Matt. 5:20. Behold, here they are already excluded; how then shall they lead others?” _Inq._ “Do only after their words.” _Jac._ “Have you no other pastors among you, to proclaim the word of God, than such scribes and Pharisees, whom God has threatened with so many curses? Does not the prophet say: Blessed is the man that has not sat among the ungodly? Ps. 1:1. And Christ admonishes us to beware of their leaven.” Matt. 16:6. _Inq._ “You must not understand it thus, but believe that an ungodly man can indeed speak good things.” _Jac._ “It is written: ‘Praise is not seemly in the mouth of the ungodly, because they are not sent of God.’ Sir. 15:9. ‘And how shall they preach, except they be sent?’” Romans 10:15. _Inq._ “It is true, it is not seemly, but he does not say that it is not good.” _Jac._ “If it is not seemly, then it is not acceptable; for what repentance can an impenitent man proclaim? For, if a thief admonish his companion not to steal any more, will his word have any effect? will not his companion say: If it is wrong to do it, why do you do it yourself. Rom. 2:21. Ye hypocrites, cast out the beam out of your own eyes, and then shall you see clearly the dust in my eyes.” Matt. 7:5. _Inq._ “You pervert every Scripture into the contrary, according to your own notion and understanding; you must not build upon yourself so much, but subject your understanding to the understanding of those that are wiser than you are.” _Jac._ “My lord, I always speak, with your permission, that if anything better is proven to me, I will follow it.”