About two weeks afterwards, there came two of the same band; the one was a large fat man, who had much talk in him; the other was very fierce and captious in his remarks, and wanted much to engage me in a disputation; but I would not enter into any, only that I put many questions to them, as I had done to the others, and made them expose their wickedness themselves; for very many prisoners had come and stationed themselves back under the window of the room, and behind the door, to listen; which I well knew; hence I asked the more, because the one was so loquacious, which was owing to him having imbibed too much.
Having been confined about seven weeks, I was called down and led into a room, where sat the Dean of Ronse, with his clerk, and another person. The Dean told me to be seated, and I took a seat forward at the table, beside him, whereupon he gave me a long lecture, to which I listened. He said that it was impossible to please God without faith, and that he that did not believe was damned. Finally he asked me: “Why did you allow yourself to be thus seduced, and led into error, and apostatize from the holy church?” I replied: “Since it is written that it is impossible to please God without faith, I was diligent in examining the faith, and asking God to strengthen me in it, through his grace and mercy. This he has done abundantly, and I want to keep it faithfully unto his praise, and not to forsake it on account of any suffering, nor for aught that is in the world.”
_Dean._ “You think you have the faith, but you have departed from it. And that you people are so bold and of good cheer even unto death, is all owing to the devil, who can transform himself into an angel of light. Hence, when you read the Scriptures, you were instructed by some poor, simple tradesman, who taught you the same according to his reason; therefore you are now deceived. You should have let those teach you, who have received the true doctrine, the ministers of the holy church, that is, the pastors.” _Claes._ “Are they the ones that have received the true doctrine?” _Dean._ “Yes.” _Claes._ “Why, then, do they live the life of devils, as may be seen?” _Dean._ “What does that concern you? It is written, Matt. 23: ‘Do after their commandments, but not after their works.’” _Claes._ “Are you, then, the scribes and Pharisees, of whom Matthew has written?” _Dean._ “Yes.” _Claes._ “Then all the woes come upon you, that follow further on, in said chapter.” _Dean._ “No, they do not.”
We had much additional discussion yet, with reference to this. He would have liked to engage me in a disputation concerning the articles of faith; but I would not enter into one, confining myself to the asking of such questions. The man was willing in speaking, and very mild, and wanted attention to be given to what he said, and also gave good attention himself. And I thought: “I have heard so long and so much of this man, that he persecutes and troubles the church so greatly; I must see now, how he will prove it with the Scriptures, when I speak with him; for I don’t know that I have ever seen him.”
I asked him, where he found it written, that he should run so bloodthirstily after innocent blood, which no one could accuse of any crime. _Dean._ “My friend, I don’t run after or seek the blood of any one.” _Claes._ “You send out your servants for that purpose.” _Dean._ “I do not, my friend.” _Claes._ “Do you persecute no one, then?” _Dean._ “No, my friend.” _Claes._ “Have you no mandates either, by which you cause it to be done?” _Dean._ “No, my friend.” _Claes._ “You have certainly delivered to the law my fellow-brethren who fell into your hands, and remained steadfast in the faith; this has been manifest to all the world.” _Dean._ “I don’t do this, my friend.” _Claes._ “Why do you come and sit with the Judges, and have so much to say, if you don’t concern yourself about the matter? One by hearing you talk, would think you had no hand in it.” _Dean._ “No, my friend;” and he rubbed his hands together. _Claes._ “Who then does it?” _Dean._ “The secular, or the lord who has received the sword.”