Jan De Kudse, A. D. 1556.

The priest was disconcerted, and said: “Tell us the truth about your church; for no one knows where to find it; if it were good, it would certainly come to the light; you people have neither head nor authority, nor do you know one another; this is a strange thing.” _Claes._ “Paul teaches us in his epistle to the Ephesians, concerning the true church, which Christ has presented to himself, that it is glorious, holy and without blemish, without spot or wrinkle; that they are baptized together into one Spirit, and into one body, the head of which is Christ, and are joined together as members of his body. These have one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father, of us all, who is through us all, and in us all. This is the true temple of God, in which dwells the Spirit of God. This church Christ has bought and redeemed with his blood.” Eph. 5:27; 1 Cor. 12:13; Eph. 4:5,6; 1 Corinthians 6:19,20; 1 Pet. 1:19. _Priest._ “Did not Christ redeem all men, but only these?” _Claes._ “It is written in divers places, that the unbelieving shall be damned; how then will the death of Christ benefit them? or what will it avail them that Christ died? It is to be feared that they will regret it, that Christ died. But those who have believed in the word of the Lord, and followed it, they are the ones who will inherit the kingdom of heaven, and triumph with the Lord on mount Zion, who have death, devil, hell and the world under their feet, though the world in her frenzy hastens to tear, devour and destroy them. If they were of the world, the world would love them; but because they are not of the world, therefore the world hates them, as Christ said.” John 15:19. _Priest._ “You people don’t believe that Christ is God and man.” _Claes._ “I believe that Christ is true God and man.” _Priest._ “Do you not believe that Christ is man from Mary’s flesh?” _Claes._ “No; for if he had become man from Mary’s natural flesh and blood, he must have had his beginning with Mary; but it is written that he has neither beginning of days, nor end of life. Heb. 7:3. And the Word would not have become flesh, if he had assumed flesh from Mary; nor would he have come in the flesh, as John declares; but he would have come from the flesh, had he assumed it from Mary. John 1:14; 2 John 7. And it is written: He that confesseth not that Christ is come in the flesh, is that spirit of antichrist. 1 John 4:3. And if he were such a carnal man, he could not have ascended to heaven; for it is written (1 Cor. 15:50) that flesh and blood will not inherit the kingdom of God.” _Priest._ “Still, did not the angel Gabriel say to Mary: Thou shalt conceive and bring forth a son?” Luke 1:31; Is. 7:14. _Claes._ “Well, understand the word rightly; for he said: Thou shalt conceive, and bring forth; now, what Mary conceived, could not grow from her.” _Priest._ “What word became flesh?” _Claes._ “The same word of which John testifies to us, in his first epistle, saying: That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life; for the life was manifested. 1 John 1:1; John 9:37; 20:27. What else do you want to know?” _Priest._ “Where did Christ assume his flesh, in heaven, or on earth?” _Claes._ “That which I cannot prove with Scriptures, I will not say.” _Priest._ “Don’t you believe anything but what is written?” _Claes._ “No.” _Priest._ “You certainly believe that you have a soul; but what do you know as to what your soul is, how large, how long, how wide, or of what color it is?” _Claes._ “What does that concern me? my salvation does not lie in that.” _Priest._ “You believe that the dead will rise; but how can any one comprehend that what has perished will rise and become alive?” _Claes._ “I am well satisfied with the explanation Paul has written,” 1 Cor. 15. _Priest._ “Do you not believe that Mary is mother and virgin?” _Claes._ “Yes.” The priest smote his hand upon the table, drew himself up to his full height, and said: “This you cannot prove to me; we find nothing of this kind written in the Scriptures.” _Claes._ “The prophet Isaiah prophesied that he should be born of a virgin. Is. 7:14. Again, when Gabriel said to Mary: Thou shalt conceive and bring forth a son; Mary answered: “How shall this be, seeing I know not a man?” Luke 1:31,34. _Priest._ “Yes, thus you may glean it here and there; but that she remained virgin until her death?” _Claes._ “This I do not say.” _Priest._ “That is what I mean. And what do you think of the Supper? do you not believe that when Christ took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, saying: ‘Take, eat; this is my body;’ he gave them his natural flesh and blood?” _Claes._ “No,” _Priest._ “Did he not say: Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you? And did he not say that this was the true heavenly bread, which came down from heaven?” John 6:53,51. _Claes._ “The bread of which Christ speaks (John 6), is this the bread which you give the people to eat, namely, which you people call the sacrament?” _Priest._ “Yea, it is the same which he left us.” _Claes._ “According to this, then, no one will be damned of all those that eat of it; for Christ said: If any man eat of this bread, he shall live forever; but now every one comes, whores, knaves, thieves, murderers, of whom it is written that they shall not inherit the kingdom of heaven.” Gal. 5:21. _Priest._ “They have sorrow for their sins, before they receive it; and the Lord said: If the sinner sighs over his transgression, I will remember it no more forever.” Ezek. 18:21.