We had yet much more discussion on this subject, so that he did not know which way to turn. He asked from Deut. 17:12, upon which passage he founded it, that the priests had the authority, etc. I told him that that was under the law of revenge, but that now we were under the law of grace. Exodus 21:23; Rom. 6:14. And I asked him, how he dared do something which the Lord had forbidden, namely, concerning the tares, Matt. 13:30, that both the wheat and the tares should be suffered to grow together. I asked him which of the two I was, that I must certainly be either the wheat or the tares? _Dean._ “You are the tares.” _Claes._ “Why don’t you let me grow until the day of harvest?” _Dean._ “What the lord of the field commanded his servants was for the reason, that they should not spoil the wheat by pulling up the tares. But I can go along the edges, and here and there pluck out a handful or two, yea, sometimes, six, eight, ten, twelve, yea, now and then a hundred or two, without spoiling the wheat.” _Claes._ “Then you are wiser than the servants of the Lord.” _Dean._ “I can certainly well do this.” _Claes._ “When I held with the priests, and walked according to your will, was I a good blade?” _Dean._ “Yes.” _Claes._ “Am I now a bad blade?” _Dean._ “Yes.” _Claes._ “Well, then, if I am a bad blade, according to your own words, you have yourselves spoiled me, and others, who have gone before, by your plucking, and yet you say that you can do it so well. O you miserable plucker, that you are, when you plucked the four blades of Lier, in the Verle place, five years ago, when you stood on the scaffold, and preached, and the people said: “Antichrist preaches.” It was then that I began to investigate, what faith it was for which those people died so boldly there; and I examined the scripture which you quoted from 2 Tim. 2 and 3. And I found that I had to separate from such a people as is plainly enough spoken of there, with regard to you; and I separated from such a multitude, and do so yet. What becomes now of you and your plucking, poor plucker; the more you pluck, the more you spoil; according to your own words, it were better if you would stop.” And I told him a great deal from the Scriptures, so that he was ashamed, and knew not what to answer.
At last he said: “Those were not my people; it seems to me, that you have searched the Scriptures well; where did you hold your church?” _Claes._ “Where Christ and his apostles held it, behind hedges, in the woods, in the field, on mountains, on the sea-coast, sometimes in houses, or wherever they found a place.” Luke 6:17; Matt. 5:2; Acts 1:13. _Dean._ “Christ preached openly (Jn. 18:20); but you people cannot be found, where you are, or who you are.” _Claes._ “It is certainly a great cross for you, that you cannot find them, nor know them, and that you people are known so well. I hope that God will not permit you to find them; but though you sometimes cut into the branches, I trust that you will not cut off the vine. Christ Jesus, the living Son of God, will keep and feed his branches, so that they may bring forth fruit, although you now do your very best to tear and destroy them.”
We spoke much more yet of the church, and of his people, whom he exalted greatly. I asked him many questions in regard to whether infants that died without baptism were damned. He said: “Yes.” I asked him whether the apostles had read mass and persecuted. And he replied “Yes” to everything, so that it seemed to me that the more I asked him, the more he lied; and I reproved him for the lies in which I found him. He said: “They are not lies, but it is the truth; but you don’t believe what is told you; you remain hardened and unbelieving.” And according to his words, it seemed that the life of the apostles was not a whit different from that of the priests. He said: “As regards your life, your walk or conversation is good towards all men, and you do unto your neighbor as you would have men do unto you, and live in peace, love and unity with one another, which is very good; and you assist each other in need and distress, and lay down your lives for one another, which is also very good, I can say nothing against it; and you expel from your church them that live disorderly, as you expelled Jelis of Aix-la-Chapelle, who led such a life, as I well know; against this I have nothing to say, it is all well done: but of what use is it to your people to have the life, if you have not the faith? it is not able to save you.” I replied: “We have also the faith; but you don’t understand it, or will not understand it; but it will yet be revealed to you, in the last day of the Lord, whom you have served.” And I assailed him very severely.