Perceiving that he could get nothing else out of me, he asked me: “What is your determination?” _Jac._ “I have declared my faith to you, and thereupon I have made my determination, until the contrary be proven to me.” _Inq._ “I have proven it to you sufficiently; but you will believe nothing but your fancy and obstinacy, and have forsaken the holy church.” _Jac._ “My lord, I have not forsaken the holy church; for if I had recognized your church as the holy church, I should not have forsaken it, to join another.” _Inq._ “Nevertheless, though Satan has thus deceived you, and you think that we are not the holy church, yet it is the same that it has always been from the times of the apostles, and been maintained through the holy teachers until the present time.” _Jac._ “If it is the same church which existed at the time of the apostles, it must have the same or like bishops and pastors as were then.” _Inq._ “Yes, and so we have.” _Jac._ “Well then, my lord, show me in your whole church only one bishop or pastor who is blameless in doctrine and life, even as Paul, or Timothy, or Titus, and I will follow him with all my heart.” _Inq._ “Have you such pastors among you?” _Jac._ “My lord, you say that we are Satan’s congregation, and that your church is the same which was in the time of the apostles; hence show me those people, whereby I may know them.” _Inq._ “Where do you think to find such? for they had the Holy Ghost, who is not given now.” _Jac._ “Not! How comes it then, that Paul says that he that has not the Spirit of God, is none of his?” Rom. 8:9. _Inq._ “This has another meaning.” _Jac._ “My lord, what meaning?” _Inq._ “He there speaks of those who do not walk after the Spirit.” _Jac._ “Well, for what else do I ask you, than for bishops and pastors who walk and are led by the Spirit of God, who are holy, just, vigilant, and blameless in the doctrine, in life and conversation, as Paul teaches that they must be.” _Inq._ “I could easily name; such bishops or pastors as are blameless, but you do not know them.” _Jac._ “Where are they?” _Inq._ “In Italy and in Spain.” _Jac._ “Is the church of God there, and not here?” _Inq._ “There is also a cardinal or bishop in England, who truly is a man blameless in doctrine and conversation.” _Jac._ “My lord, pray release me from these chains, and let me go, and I shall use all diligence to get to him, to see whether it is true.”
He laughingly replied: “No, no; you must believe what is told you.” _Jac._ “My lord, it is written: Cursed be the man that trusteth in man. Jer. 17:5. Shall I depend upon your word alone?” _Inq._ “Do you think that I lie?” _Jac._ “I do not say that: but I want to see it first before I believe it.” Inq. “Yes, yes, but you cannot now.” Jac. “Since I cannot see it, I cannot believe it either.” _Inq._ “Why will you pay so much attention to their conversation, seeing they have the doctrine of the apostles?” _Jac._ “This is yet to be proven to me, and it would be difficult for you to prove to me by the Scriptures, that they have the doctrine of the apostles.” _Inq._ “Nevertheless they have it; but you are hardened, and cannot comprehend it.” _Jac._ “This assertion lacks the support of the Scriptures, and if they are trees from the roots of the apostles, show me the fruits, that I may know them.” _Inq._ “Can you then know the faith by the works, whether it is good or bad.” _Jac._ “My lord, our Master has taught us that we shall know the false prophets by their fruits (Matt. 7:16); for when we find grapes on the vine, we dare not say, like you people do, that we have plucked them from thorns.”