_Jac._ “Yes; my lord, you say that our sect has existed only twenty or thirty years, but it has always been the case that those who would live godly in Christ Jesus, have had to suffer persecution, according to the words of Paul.” _Inq._ “Thus speak all heretics.” _Jac._ “Paul said it first; yet he was not a heretic.” _Inq._ “I am well aware that he was no heretic; but they all use the words of Paul; but I tell you, decrees and mandates for the putting to death of heretics are not a recent invention, but this has obtained for fourteen hundred years already.” _Jac._ “But it remains to be seen whether Emperor Theodosius, of whom you spoke, did well, and a good work according to the will of God, in issuing such a mandate.” _Inq._ “Yes, he certainly did, since he well knew that they were heretics.” _Jac._ “My lord, in his opinion they were heretics: but in the opinion of those who gave their lives for the testimony of their faith, he himself was a heretic and tyrant.” _Inq._ “How do you know that?” _Jac._ “This is self-evident; for those who put us to death for our faith, we esteem no better than heretics and tyrants, as may easily be presumed that also they did who were put to death by Emperor Theodosius. Hence, this matter cannot be judged save by the Spirit of God.” _Inq._ “No, no, you must not think that so many learned doctors as were then in the Catholic church, would have then permitted it, if it had been wrong to put heretics to death.” _Jac._ “I will not rely upon the ordinances or wisdom of men; for I adhere to the instruction of Christ and his apostles, who constantly admonish us to separate from false prophets, and to shun heretics; but not to pursue them, or to persecute them unto death.” Matthew 7:15; Tit. 3:10. _Inq._ “My son, do you know why they did not put them to death?” _Jac._ “I believe it was because it was not pleasing to God.” _Inq._ “No, no, Jacques, it was because they were not powerful enough, and had neither king, nor prince, nor magistrate.” _Jac._ “Christ had power enough to call to his aid more than twelve legions of angels, and the apostles had power enough through the Holy Spirit, but they were called to be a flock of sheep and lambs, as harmless as doves, and so changed as to be like little children.” Matthew 26:53; 10:16; John 10:27. _Inq._ “It is true, it was so at that time.” _Jac._ “And shall now, my lord, the children of God be of a different nature from what they were then, shall they have the nature of wolves?” _Inq._ “Certainly not; I do not say that.” _Jac._ “Yet it appears to me, my lord, that those who now boast of being children of God, have the genuine nature of ravening wolves.”
He looked at me sharply and said to me: “Why do you think so?” _Jac._ “Because, my lord, Christ calls his people sheep and lambs; and it is the nature of a flock of sheep, that if they see any beast approaching, and perceive that it is a wolf, they all flee, yea, though they were a thousand of them against one wolf, and they do not pursue the wolf, to devour him, and to shed his blood; but they who boast of being the flock of Christ, do the very opposite; whence do they get this nature?” _Inq._ “This comparison is good for nothing, and the allegations are useless: for it does not obtain with the flock of Christ, as with a flock of sheep.”
Seeing that he rejected this, I asked him: “Is it not necessary that the children of God should be born of God, as John testifies? (John 1:13) and must they not be of such a nature and disposition as their Father and Lord?” _Inq._ “Yes, but why?” _Jac._ “Because it is written that the Son of God was led as a lamb or sheep to the slaughter, and opened not his mouth; hence his children must be of such a nature, since they are born of God.” Isaiah 53:7; Luke 8:32. _Inq._ “This! it had to come so.” _Jac._ “Why?” _Inq._ “That the Scriptures might be fulfilled.” _Jac._ “Thus it must also be with regard to his children, in order that the Scripture may be fulfilled.” _Inq._ “What Scripture?” _Jac._ “This: ‘If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you; remember the word that I said unto you, the servant is not greater than his lord.’” _Inq._ “This he said to his apostles.” _Jac._ “I understand it as having been spoken by him of all his children, and as having been written for our instruction.” _Inq._ “No, no, my son; you must understand that the apostles were sent to proclaim and preach the gospel to every creature, and the Lord predicted that much suffering should come upon them, and that they should be put to death; but after they had gained a prince to the faith, they had rest, and might well put to death the heretics in their country.” _Jac._ “My lord, the Scriptures do not say this, nor can I conceive that it can be the nature of a lamb, to kill and devour a wolf; for you people say that you are the flock of Christ, and that we are ravening wolves, and you put us to death; this does not seem right to me.”