I then took his German testament, which he had before him, and read the passage to him. After I had showed and read it to him, he said to me: “You must not govern yourself according to your own understanding, but according to the exposition of the holy teachers, such as St. Augustine, Ambrose, and others of the ancient church.” _Jac._ “I am well satisfied with St. Paul’s exposition, without seeking for many other expositions.” _Inq._ “Where has Paul expounded the sacrament of the altar?” _Jac._ “Paul has expounded and indicated to the Corinthians, what the Lord’s supper and the breaking of the bread is.” _Inq._ “Show it to me?” I still had his testament, and read to him the tenth chapter of the first epistle to the Corinthians, where Paul says: “I speak as to wise men; judge ye what I say. The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ?” Verses 15,16.
I had scarcely read this when he hastily replied: “This is against you, for the apostle there clearly proves that there is flesh and blood in the bread and wine, and that we are partakers of the body of Christ.” _Jac._ “My lord, if you please, let me read a little further, and you shall see that Paul is not speaking of the body of Christ in flesh and blood, as it hung on the cross; but of his church, which is his body; for when he says that we have communion, and are partakers of the body of Christ, he says: ‘For we being many, are one bread, and one body: for we are all partakers of that one bread.’” Verse 17. _Inq._ “The apostle speaks here of another body, namely, of his church.” _Jac._ “I do not find that Paul makes any distinction between two bodies, but that he speaks of but one body of Christ.” _Inq._ “What then do you understand by eating his body and drinking his blood?” _Jac._ “Just what Paul indicates, that it is the communion or partaking of the body of Christ.” _Inq._ “My child, how deceived you are! do you understand then, that you can by communion be a partaker of the body and blood of Christ, without eating and drinking thereof?” _Jac._ “My lord, I am not deceived, but my foundation is the word of God.” _Inq._ “Well then, what do you understand by this communion?” _Jac._ “The apostle tells us this, when he says, in the same chapter: Behold Israel after the flesh: are not they which eat of the sacrifices partakers of the altar? Verse 18. Behold, my lord, here is the simile by which Paul indicates it to the Corinthians; do you not also understand it so, my lord?” _Inq._ “Yes.” _Jac._ “My lord, I do not think that you mean that those who were partakers of the altar, therefore ate the altar, but only the sacrifices which lay on the altar.” _Inq._ “Do you think that the same obtains with the sacrament?” _Jac._ “My lord, it seems to me, that when we eat the bread, we thereby signify that we have part in the body of Christ; and yet we eat only the bread, and not Christ, just as Israel did not eat the altar, but only the sacrifices, and yet, by eating the sacrifices, indicated that they were partakers of the altar.”
Looking sharply at me, he said: “What an error! and do you not believe that in eating the consecrated bread we eat the body of Christ?” _Jac._ “Paul does not teach this, neither do I understand it so.” _Inq._ “Is it not a sad thing of you people, Jacques, that you do not believe the word of God, which says: This is my body; this is my blood; do this in remembrance of me?” _Jac._ “I believe the word of God; Christ clearly indicated that he should not be there bodily, since he said that it should be done in remembrance of him. Paul also says: ‘As often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord’s death till he come.’ 1 Cor. 11:26. Hence he is not there bodily, seeing he has not come yet.” _Inq._ “He is certainly there bodily, according to to the word of Christ, and all the holy teachers expound it so.” _Jac._ “I think more of Paul singly, than of all the other teachers, and I hold only to Paul’s exposition.” _Inq._ “You must also believe the holy teachers of the Catholic church.” _Jac._ “I believe the holy Scriptures, and only the word of God.” _Inq._ “If you believe the word of God, you must believe that he that (when the bread is consecrated, and the words have been pronounced), receives it bodily, receives the body and blood of Christ, since Christ says so, and he does not lie, but speaks the truth.” _Jac._ “I know full well that Christ speaks the truth, but we must understand how he speaks when he says: ‘I am the bread which came down from heaven, and the bread that I will give is my flesh’ (John 6:51); do you believe this?” _Inq._ “No, do you believe it?” _Jac._ “I shall not tell you, neither do we now dispute about it; but because you say that we must believe as Christ says; behold, when he says: ‘I am the vine and my Father is the husbandman.’ John 15:1. Paul also says that the Rock of which the children of Israel drank was Christ.” 1 Cor. 10:4. _Inq._ “No, no, all these words are not to be believed thus; they are only types of Christ.” _Jac._ “So is this expression.” _Inq._ “But this is a sacrament, which is left us as a memorial of the body of Christ.” _Jac._ “My lord, behold Israel after the flesh; the lamb which they ate was called the passover and a perpetual memorial, that through the mighty hand of God they had gone out of Egypt, out of the house of bondage; and so is also the bread which we break, a memorial of Christ, who has redeemed us from sin and eternal death, delivering us from the bondage of the devil and the enemy.” _Inq._ “Yes, according to the opinion of your pastors, Calvin and Zuinglius, and like heretics, who have introduced new doctrines; but we have been in this faith over fourteen hundred years; why do you not believe us?” _Jac._ “My lord, should I believe because of the long time? there were many heretics, such as the Sadducees, Nicolaitans, Gentiles, and many others, who erred much longer yet. Turn to the Scriptures alone, according to the example of the good King Josiah.” 2 Kings 22:11. _Inq._ “Do you think so my son? No, no.” _Jac._ “My lord, so did the children say to Jeremiah, when they were out of the way. Jer. 18:18. You also well know how they abused the grace of God, making a golden calf, praising it and saying: ‘This is the god which brought us up and delivered us out of Egypt.’ Ex. 32:4. Thus your people now say of the bread. It is Christ who died for us.”