Gotthard Of Nonenberg And Peter Kramer, A. D. 1558.

He became angry, and asked me: “Are we idolaters, because we worship Christ?” _Jac._ “No, if he is in the bread; but if he is not in it, what else are you?” _Inq._ “Well then, what do you believe concerning it? say but a word, yes or no.” _Jac._ “My lord, you have heard that I believe that he sits on the right hand of his Father in heaven.” _Inq._ “But in the bread?” _Jac._ “My lord, I have told you that I believe in regard to this according to the testimony of Paul.” _Inq._ “Then you do not believe, I perceive, that the holy flesh of Christ is eaten as a sacrament?” _Jac._ “Do all who receive the bread, also receive the body of Christ?” _Inq._ “Yes, completely, whoever they may be.” _Jac._ “Does a robber, murderer, rogue, or other person who is full of treachery, deceit and wickedness, and who feels no sorrow or grief for his evil deeds, but does still intend to lead such a wicked life, does such an one receive the body and blood of Christ?” _Inq._ “Though he were the worst man in the world, yea, even a Turk or heathen, if he came to the sacrament, he would receive the body and blood of Christ, as well as any other person, yea, what is more yet, if he were a beast.” _Jac._ “How, my lord, could it be possible, that the unbelieving, ungodly and unrighteous, to whom eternal damnation is promised, should receive the body and blood of Christ? It would necessarily follow, contrary to all Scripture, God willing or not, that they would have eternal life, and the beasts as well as we, because the Lord has promised that whosoever eats his flesh, and drinks his blood, has eternal life; and thus the ungodly would have part in the body of Christ and of Belial, in light and in darkness, which is impossible, as Paul says.” John 6:54; 2 Cor. 6:15. _Inq._ “How? do you not understand what Paul says, that he that eats this body, receives his judgment?” _Jac._ “Hold on, my lord; do not break the Scriptures, for Paul says: _this bread_; and not: _this body_.” 1 Cor. 11:27. _Inq._ “Well then, whosoever eats of this body, or this bread, and drinks this cup, unworthily, receives damnation to himself.” _Jac._ “My lord, he that receives his judgment is far from receiving the body of Christ; but it is the sentence of his death that he receives.” _Inq._ “Well then, you certainly acknowledge these words of Jesus Christ: ‘Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life’ (Jn. 6:54); hence you must certainly believe that we can eat and drink him, as he says.” _Jac._ “I believe the words of Jesus Christ, but not in the manner the Jews did, who were offended at him, and said: ‘How can this man give us his blood to drink, and his flesh to eat?’ yea, even his disciples.” _Inq._ “This was because they did not understand it well.” _Jac._ “This I readily believe; for if they had understood it well, they would not have said it, and his disciples would not have forsaken him because of these words, as they did.” _Inq._ “Understand well, my son, this was because they understood that his flesh had to be eaten roasted or boiled, like other meat; but he spoke of the sacramental eating; otherwise the eating would not have availed anything. But do you not believe that we eat his flesh sacramentally, which is a sacrament, which he left us under the form of bread and wine, into which he has transformed himself?” _Jac._ “Then he left behind him things that are good for nothing.” _Inq._ “How so?” _Jac._ “For this reason, my lord, when his disciples understood it so grossly, as you and others do, he said to them that the flesh profited nothing, but the Spirit that quickeneth; and my words, said he, are spirit and life (Jn. 6:63); hence, what profit is it, if we eat his flesh?” _Inq._ “This was because they did not understand it well, as I have already told you.” _Jac._ “My lord, I indeed believe that if they had understood it well, it would not have been necessary for him to indicate to them that he had allusion to his word.” _Inq._ “How do you know that he was speaking of his word?” _Jac._ “My lord, I know that it was of his word, even as it is written that man shall not live by bread alone, but by the word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God, which alone quickens us in God unto eternal life.” Matt. 4:4. _Inq._ “Behold, how your deceivers have instructed you in their new doctrines.” _Jac._ “My foundation does not rest upon men, but upon the word of God.” _Inq._ “Why then will you not believe, like your mother the holy church, that after the words are pronounced, the bread and the wine are changed?” _Jac._ “My lord, I have already told you that it is because there is nothing of this kind written in the Scriptures, for neither the bread nor the wine which Christ gave were changed.” _Inq._ “O, certainly it was.” _Jac._ “My lord, I have proven to you, that he still calls it a fruit of the vine, after the words were spoken.” _Inq._ “Do you not believe then, Jacques, that Jesus Christ is Almighty? and that he had power to give his disciples his blood to drink?” _Jac._ “I know, my lord, that he is Almighty, and that he was able to do it; and even if he had done it, my lord, has he promised you, that you people should also perform such a work?” _Inq._ “But is Jesus Christ not able to leave us this in his sacrament, for a testament?” _Jac._ “Yes, my lord, had he said so; for he had power over the winds, and the devils, to change water into wine, and to make himself invisible. Matt. 8:26; John 2:9; Luke 4:30. In short, I believe that he is Almighty in all things; but a sinful man does not have this power.” _Inq._ “Not! if he utters the same words of Christ?” _Jac._ “The power does not lie in the words: this would be the same as sorcery. And if any one were to say to a sick man: ‘Be thou whole,’ in the same manner in which Christ said it, it would not heal him.” _Inq._ “Then you do not believe that Christ Jesus is in the bread?” _Jac._ “My lord, I think you have heard my resolution as to what I believe with regard to it. Christ said that we should do it in remembrance of him: now, if he were present, how could it be done in remembrance of him?” _Inq._ “O how these villains, Zuinglius and Calvin, have deceived you; those profaners of the sacrament, who pervert all Scripture into the contrary.” _Jac._ “My faith is not founded upon the doctrine of either Calvin or Zuinglius.” _Inq._ “Upon what then?” _Jac._ “Upon the word of God, and the foundation of the apostles.” _Inq._ “How? you do not believe the word of God.” _Jac._ “My lord, how should I not believe the word of God? For this same word I am a prisoner, and stand here in chains before you, to bear witness to it.” _Inq._ “My son, it is for the word of Satan, and not for the word of God.” _Jac._ “My lord, take care what you say, lest you blaspheme; for I have not quoted the word of Satan for my doctrine and faith, but the pure word of God; but you quote to me the word and exposition of men.” _Inq._ “It is the word of the holy teachers of the church, whom you reject; behold here the cause of your error.” _Jac._ “I do not reject them, but I leave them undisturbed; for I find material enough in the word of God, to lay a good foundation, and water of life enough to drink in the pure fountain, without running to the brooks or pools, which are mostly filthy and turpid.” _Inq._ “Well, this does not bring us any further; it is late already; since you will not believe as our mother the holy church instructs you, take heed and consider the matter well; for you are in such error, that if you die in this state, you will be damned to all the devils, in the depths of hell.” _Jac._ “My lord, it is written that judgment belongs to God alone; how then do you so presumptuously usurp God’s place? God will judge me.” _Inq._ “Jacques, this is all clear; for you do not believe, and he that believeth not is damned, says Christ.” Mark 16:16. _Jac._ “It is written: Judge not according to appearance, but judge righteous judgment. John 7:24. If I did not believe it, I would not quote the word of God in my defense.” _Inq._ “All heretics do this. Well then, pray earnestly to God, that you may return to the holy church.” _Jac._ “I trust through the grace of God, that I have become a member of the true and holy church, which has been cleansed and purchased with the blood of Jesus Christ.”