We had many more words yet about this article, also about baptism, and a little afterwards about purgatory, and the decree, in all for about an hour and a half; whereupon he left me, showing me a very nice and friendly countenance, whether it came from the heart, I do not know.
On the 20th of January of said year, I was again brought before the same inquisitor. He asked me: “To what conclusion have you come in regard to what I laid before you concerning baptism and the sacrament, and what are your views in the matter?” _Jac._ “I have nothing to tell you than that you have already heard from me.” _Inq._ “Then, if I hear right, you remain opinionated and obstinate?” _Jac._ “My lord, I should be sorry to be obstinate against my own conscience; but as you cannot prove to me by the Scriptures that which you believe, namely, that the baptism of infants is an ordinance of God, and an apostolical practice, and also, that the bread and the wine are changed into flesh and blood, when the priest has pronounced the words over the bread, this seems to me sorcery, and I cannot understand it so.” _Inq._ “You may not doubt that the change takes place through the power of God, for I have sufficiently proven it to you by the Scriptures of God; but you will not believe.” _Jac._ “My lord, do not say so; for if you had proven it to me by the Scriptures, I should gladly believe it; for all my salvation lies in God’s holy word.” _Inq._ “I have quoted to you the word of God; but you believe nothing but your fanaticism and opinion.” _Jac._ “My lord, I beg you not to think this; if I knew better, or understood it differently, I should not wish to resist the word of God against my conscience, being in the state in which I am, namely, imprisoned for my life, in daily expectation of death; or it might well be said that I was the most miserable and unfortunate man that ever lived upon earth, that I should voluntarily and premeditatedly seek pain and suffering here until death, in order to obtain eternal damnation.” _Inq._ “Yes, my child, take good heed what you do; for if you die in this evil faith and doctrine you have, you are damned to all the devils.” _Jac._ “O my lord, how dare you speak so? It is written: ‘Judge not, that ye be not judged; for with what judgment ye judge (says the Lord), ye shall be judged.’” Matt. 7:1,2. _Inq._ “I judge you according to truth.” _Jac._ “My lord, do not say that; for you know not what you judge.” _Inq._ “O yes, I do.” And taking up an inkstand, which stood on the table, he said to me: “As sure as I know that I hold this inkstand, so assured am I, that if you continue in this doctrine, and die thus, you will never see the face of God, but will be eternally damned.” _Jac._ “My lord, do not judge so; for you usurp God’s place, and rob him of his honor; for judgment belongs unto him alone.” _Inq._ “Do you think that I do not know what I am saying? and that I do not see that you are in error? no heretics shall enter into paradise.” _Jac._ “My lord, you think that we are in error; but as you people think of us, so we think of you.” _Inq._ “O it is easy to know through the word of God, who are in error and heresy.” _Jac._ “True, it is easy to know for those to whom the Lord has given the grace and wisdom. And for this reason I beg you, my lord, not to take it amiss, if I speak somewhat boldly with you, and open my heart to you.” _Inq._ “No indeed.” _Jac._ “My lord, as you people think that we are false prophets and deceivers, so we think that you are; as you think that we err, so we think that you err; as you think that we deceive the people, so we think that you deceive them, and upon this we forsake life and all that we have in the world, to show to you people, and to seal with our blood, the faith which we have in God.” _Inq._ “Nevertheless, this only tends to your damnation.” _Jac._ “If it tends to our damnation, we are of all men under heaven the most miserable (1 Cor. 15:19); for we are cast out, despised and rejected as abominable before all the world (1 Corinthians 4:9), and flee from place to place, so that we suffer continually in the flesh, and have no rest, and, according to what you say, we are also to suffer after this life: no, no, my lord, we feel quite a different witness and promise through the word of God.” _Inq._ “This arises from the fact that you are deceived; but it will avail you nothing.” _Jac._ “Where then is the people who must follow their Master through suffering and affliction to eternal life, as Christ has said that they should be hated for his name’s sake.” Matt. 10:22. _Inq._ “This was spoken to the apostles only.” _Jac._ “How comes it then that Paul says that all that will live godly in Christ Jesus, shall suffer persecution? 2 Tim. 3:12. And the prophet says that the afflictions of the righteous shall be many, but that the Lord delivers them out of all evil.” Ps. 34:10. _Inq._ “This means that the devil will always cause them enough temptation and affliction.” _Jac._ “Paul speaks of persecution, and not of temptation; nor can I conceive that Christ spoke of temptation, when he said: They will scourge you in their synagogues, and persecute you unto death, and will think that they do God service thereby; and ye shall be hated of father and mother, brethren and friends, and some of you they shall put to death.” Matt. 10:17,21; John 16:2. _Inq._ “Well, this was spoken only to the apostles.” _Jac._ “Does not Christ speak there of all that believed in his name?” _Inq._ “He spoke to the apostles only, who should suffer when going about proclaiming the gospel; but that afterwards they should cease to persecute them.” _Jac._ “How came it that the churches suffered such cruel persecution? and yet they were not all apostles.” _Inq._ “How so?” _Jac._ “Even as Luke testifies, Acts 17:13, and Paul 1 Thess. 2:14. Yea, you yourself, my lord, know full well what Eusebius, one of the ancient teachers, writes in the eighth chapter of his fourth book. In writing of the primitive church, in what suffering and contempt they were, does he not say that the people regarded them as robbers, murderers, infanticides, and abominable men, and said that they committed incest with their mothers and sisters, shed human blood in their worship, and sacrificed their children unto idols; they were also considered seditious persons, accursed villians, and enemies of God and every creature, and were charged with many other wickednesses imputed to them by the world, is it not so, my lord? as also the ancient writers Cyprian and Tertullian write.” _Inq._ “It is so; this is all very true; but it was done by those who had no knowledge of the gospel.” _Jac._ “I indeed believe that if they had believed the Gospel, they would not have persecuted them, nor uttered such slanders against them; but it has always been so, that even those who boasted of having the word of God persecuted them that sought to fear the Lord, and to serve God with all their heart, even as you see in Israel, those who ought to have confirmed the honor and law of God, put to death the prophets that were sent to them, and those who knew the Lord from a pure heart.” Jer. 18:18. _Inq._ “For this reason the wicked are always among the good, and the chaff remains with the good grain to the end.”