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Thereupon he arose, and said to me: “Adieu, Jacques, see that you come to a good conclusion; for your time is short; consider the matter well.” I also bade him adieu, and told him that I was ready always to follow that which was best, in what should be proven to me by the holy Scriptures, and nothing else.
We had many other words yet concerning this matter, for about two hours; but I have forgotten them. He listens attentively, and does not easily become heated; we spoke sometimes in Flemish, and sometimes in French; for the most part, however, I spoke in Flemish, because of the listeners whom I heard before the door.
Behold here the two articles in regard to which one is most tormented by them. Every time that he returned to me, he brought some subtle scripture with which to catch me; but, the Lord be praised, I was always victorious. I have been before them full eighteen or twenty times, and were I to write all the discourses which I had with them in regard to these two articles, I should require a ream of paper, so great was the number of unscriptural comparisons and similes which they adduced to me; but I always referred them to the Scriptures. If there be anything in my hymns, which does not accord with this writing, it need surprise no one; for though I were to write never so much, I should not be able to write all that was spoken between us. Thus they tormented me.
On Friday afternoon, the 14th of January 1558, I was again brought before the inquisitor. I appeared before him, and he saluted me cheerfully, for, as much as I could perceive, wine had made him very merry; he brought no books with him. After we had exchanged a few words with each other, he said to me: “Jacques, the reason why I have come here, is simply to learn your decision: for I will no more dispute with you about the articles of faith, such as the mass, confession, indulgences, purgatory, and invocation of the saints, or other ordinances of our mother the holy church.” _Jac._ “My lord, I am well satisfied; I also do not seek to dispute, but simply to believe what we are bound to believe, as far as the articles of faith are concerned.” _Inq._ “Yes, we have not much to do with disputing; for Paul says: A man that is a heretic, after the first and second admonition, avoid.” Tit. 3:10. _Jac._ “My lord, how can you reprove me for heresy, seeing you have not yet convicted me of being a heretic.” _Inq._ “Not? are you not a heretic, since you contradict the Christian faith?” _Jac._ “I do not contradict the faith, for all my purpose tends to it; but you take one view of the Scriptures, and I another, and no one can judge which is right, and which is wrong, except spiritual men through the Spirit of God.” 1 Cor. 2:15.
He laughingly asked me: “Have you the Spirit of God?” _Jac._ “My lord, you must not ask me this in jest; for I do not boast of it; nevertheless, I trust through the grace of God, that I am not actuated by the spirit of Satan.” _Inq._ “Nevertheless, you are deceived and in error, and Paul says that such shall be avoided after the first or second admonition.” _Jac._ “Since then you regard us as heretics, O that God would give, that you would at least use Paul’s advice, that is shun us, and withdraw from us, and not persecute us unto death, and shed our blood in every corner.” _Inq._ “Jacques, I do not seek your death, God knows.” _Jac._ “My lord, my God truly knows it well, and it will be seen in the end.” _Inq._ “Yes, we only do what we have been charged with and commanded to do.” _Jac._ “By whom, my lord, by God or by men?” _Inq._ “We are commanded by God to avoid false prophets.” _Jac._ “It is indeed true, my lord, that Christ admonishes us to beware of false prophets, but he gives us a sign whereby to know them, namely, like a tree is known by its fruits. What fruits have you seen on us, by which you could judge that we are false prophets?” _Inq._ “Enough everyday.” _Jac._ “Wherein?” _Inq._ “In this that you have a false doctrine, which teaches men amiss, and leads them into damnation.” _Jac._ “My lord, that our doctrine is false, is merely your opinion; nevertheless, you cannot know that we are false prophets, except by the fruit of the works, by which it may be known whether we are false prophets or not; for Christ says: Ye shall know them by their works (Matt. 7:16); but he does not say, by their faith.” _Inq._ “You people justify yourselves by your works.” _Jac._ “No; but it is impossible to gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles, or that a corrupt tree should bring forth good fruit, according to the testimony of the Lord.” _Inq._ “Well, Jacques, as I told you, I have not come here for the purpose of disputing, but simply to learn your decision.” _Jac._ “I do not wish to dispute either; but I want to reply to you, that you unjustly accuse us of heresy and deception.” _Inq._ “Well, let us dismiss that; to what conclusion have you come in regard to your confession? do you still hold to the views which you confessed before the commissary?” _Jac._ “Yes.” _Inq._ “Will you not then suffer yourself to be instructed?” _Jac._ “I seek nothing else, but always to follow that which is best, most righteous and most virtuous, and I am not so obstinate in my faith; if I would know a better way to eternal life, than the one which I now have, I would accept it.” _Inq._ “Well then, concerning baptism and the sacrament, of which we spoke together, what do you think in regard to it?” _Jac._ “Only that, my lord, which shall be proven to me by the Scriptures; that shall I believe, and nothing else.” _Inq._ “Then you do not believe the holy teachers of the Catholic church, do I hear no?” _Jac._ “I believe only the holy Scriptures.” _Inq._ “This is the reason why you are in heresy; that you think more of yourself than of the holy teachers.” _Jac._ “I glory not, save in the cross of Christ; but I will not trust in any man; for it is written: ‘Cursed be the man that trusteth in man.’” Jer. 17:5. _Inq._ “I know that; but you do not believe the word of God either.” _Jac._ “My lord, do not say this; for it is not so.” _Inq._ “Not? if our Savior, taking the bread, says: This is my body; and, taking the cup: This is my blood; why then do you not yet believe him? why do you doubt it?” _Jac._ “My lord, I believe Christ’s words, and do not doubt them.” _Inq._ “Yes, according to your own opinion, and with a different meaning.” _Jac._ “My lord, I trust that I do not understand it differently from what the apostles understand it, even as Paul expounds it.” 1 Corinthians 10. _Inq._ “You say so.”