_Inq._ “Nevertheless, you must be instructed herein by some men.” _Jac._ “We are not founded upon men, but upon the living Rock.” _Inq._ “Have you then no pastor or bishop?” _Jac._ “Yes.” _Inq._ “Who is it?” _Jac._ “Christ the Son of God.” _Inq._ “You know very well what I mean; but you do not want to answer; however, have you any adherents of Calvin or Zuinglius? are you opposed to Menno Simon?” _Jac._ “I believe that there is not much difference between my faith and Menno Simon’s” _Inq._ “Do you then believe like Menno, that Christ did not assume our flesh in the virgin Mary?” _Jac._ “My lord, you said that you would not dispute about the matter; have you changed your mind?” _Inq._ “Well then tell me simply what you believe concerning it.” _Jac._ “I believe that he is the Son of God in every respect, in flesh and spirit; but as to whence he took his flesh, this I leave in the mystery of God; the apostles did not dispute concerning it.” _Inq._ “Yes, yes.” We had also many other words yet, which I have not written here.
On Monday, the 1st of February of the same year 1558, I was again brought before the same inquisitor. After we had exchanged a few words, he asked me. “Have you not prayed the Lord for wisdom?” _Jac._ “Yes, and I need to pray to him daily.” _Inq._ “How is your conscience at ease?” _Jac._ “Very well; the Lord be praised for it.” _Inq._ “What are your views concerning baptism and the sacrament, about which we spoke?” _Jac._ “I hold the same views which I clearly stated to you before.” _Inq._ “Will you not believe differently?” _Jac._ “I would believe differently, were it given me to understand differently; but I will not speak as a hypocrite against my heart and conscience; for it is written that the Spirit of God fleeth all deceit.” Wis. 1:5. _Inq._ “Then, as I perceive, you have come to a full determination in regard to it.” _Jac._ “Yes, until I am instructed differently. My lord, do you suppose that these, namely, baptism and the sacrament, are the only objectionable things to me in your church?” _Inq._ “Well, what else is there objectionable to you?” _Jac._ “Many of the ordinances and institutions in your church, concerning which I do not find a word in the holy Scriptures.” _Inq._ “Yet we have no ordinance or institution, which I could not prove to you by the Scriptures.” _Jac._ “Where is the word _mass_ recorded, or _purgatory_, or _praying for the dead_?” _Inq._ “I will prove it to you, namely, purgatory, and that we must pray for the dead.” _Jac._ “Where is it written in the holy Scriptures?” _Inq._ “Will you receive the books of the Maccabees?” _Jac._ “Yes indeed, for apocryphical books.” _Inq._ “What does _apocryphical_ mean?” _Jac._ “The ancients used this name, to indicate that they are not authentic books, from which rules or ordinances may be taken.” _Inq._ “It is true that the doctors had some difficulty therein, but you may therefore not reject them.” _Jac._ “Yes, my lord, the reason why I will not receive them, is not only this, that I will not trust in what men have said, but also because I do not find that Christ or his apostles received them, or quoted any testimony from them.” _Inq._ “Yes, yes, where have you found that Christ or his apostles quoted anything from the books of the Kings?” _Jac._ “Enough.” _Inq._ “Where then?” _Jac._ “My lord, in the first place it is written in Matthew (12:1), that the Pharisees censured Christ, because his disciples plucked the ears of corn on the Sabbath. And Christ answered them: ‘Have ye not read what David did when he was a-hungered and they that were with him; how he entered into the house of God, and did eat the shewbread, which was not lawful for him to eat?’ Hence I say, that since Christ refers them to that which is written in the books of the Kings, he thereby shows that he receives them as authentic”[277] _Inq._ “Well, do you find anything in the book of Joshua?” _Jac._ “Yes, my lord.” _Inq._ “What is that?” _Jac._ “My lord, you well know that James in his epistle (2:25) adduces a testimony or example from the book of Joshua, namely, the second chapter, when he speaks of Rahab the harlot, who was saved by her works in faith.” _Inq._ “Then you will not receive the books of the Maccabees, because Christ and his apostles have not quoted any testimony from them?” _Jac._ “No, and this for the reason, that they contain a doctrine which is contrary to all Scripture, namely, that of sacrificing and praying for the dead.” Deuteronomy 13:1. _Inq._ “If I would take the trouble, I could prove all our ordinances with the Scriptures, such as mass, confession, image worship, invocation of the saints, and others.” _Jac._ “I think not, and even if we were agreed, my lord, in every article, I should yet not want to unite with you, unless you should prove to me by the Scriptures that it is Christian-like to shed innocent blood on account of the faith, as you do.” _Inq._ “This is on account of errors.” _Jac._ “And even though it were because the Scriptures were understood amiss, yet I do not find in the Scriptures, that we may put any one to death on account of his faith.”